pioyap i really dont care if some people think the church was very helpful (i disagree for the most part but wont debate this here), its very simple at one point it supported hitler, even if they rejected him later(just like the jws) and I understand you disagree (we will agree to disagree). Yes there were many Catholics that tried to help, like any other group of people. My grandfather was actually in a concentration camp, came in as a catholic and left a jw. So obviously not everyone had the same experience as your purported Dr. Some saw the jws treating eachother much more nicely, and yes my grandfather said this but he survived the nazi death march while helping carry people so he may be a bit biased. I prob wont comment on WWII anymore.

Yes the Catholic church cannot disfellowship/excommunicate as much as the jw's for a few reasons. But look back to when they could, what they did. When technology wasnt as advanced and people had less protections. What happened in such circumstances? Did they not do the same and even worse that what the jws do today? They very much did, i never heard the last time a jw was burned at a stake. There was massive abuses of power (and it appears there continues to be). Its easy to say they are so different but they really arent, they are only "so different" from the point of view of a believer, just like it was offensive for the jws to be compared to Catholics who would proudly say they are sooo different from Christendom (its the same in reverse).

As for "atheists call[ing] religious people judgmental." Well I didnt but I would, because we are all judgmental in one way or another, its an asset to be a good judge not a disaster. What I have more of a problem is hypocrisy... when some religious people say they arent judgmental and go on pronouncing judgements. Since you brought it up, if pressed the adjective id use is probably "irrational" but not for purposes of making people take offense (as I wouldnt declare this openly) but because in my opinion it most adequately describes accepting circumstantial experienced emotional evidence (if any at all) as a source of absolute truth. To me it just seems irrational, but you may of course disagree which im sure many here will. And I keep my opinions to myself unless inquired upon, and even then I usually hesitate. CJ, I had a similiar situation when I was a jw, friends were pressing me and I simply kept saying "I rather not discuss religious matters." In my case I noticed my unwillingness to discuss such matters was a form of cognitive dissonance.

The Dude Abides
Last Edited By: dude Jul 14 11 5:59 AM. Edited 5 times.