"Won without a word." in Helping and Discussion Board for Ex-JWs Forum

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"Won without a word."

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Papillon1960	"Won without a word."	Lead	[-]
Posts: 3396 (02/05/12 05:44:32) Forum Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Has anyone else noticed that the more you try to reason with a JW, the closer to their cult they become? I regularly talk to JWs on another site and despite my subtle warnings and outright horror stories about abuse and scams in HQ, it seems like when I am not speaking against the organization, they have healthy doubts and when I speak against the org, they automatically go on the defensive. Could we, without even knowing it, be driving the JWs we have in our lives closer to their cult by trying to reason with them? Just my meandering thought for the day. Maybe it is more effective to not say much but leave apostate literature around and if they read it, that is on them and not us. That way, the decision to read it is theirs and they can't blame anyone but themselves if they pick it up and read it. Also, I just love taking their phrases and turning them on the JWs. In that way, they would be "won without a word". Here's another one: "Let us not cast our pearls before swine." Let the little piggies pick up the pearls and wear them on their own. Love and hugs-Michele
Odd Dolls		#1	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster)++ Posts: 2083 (02/05/12 05:58:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've thought of that. And each time they "defend the truth" they feel righteous and will go talk about it with other JWs for the pat on the back. They do reinforce themselves and each other when they hear anti JW stuff from any source. I thought that maybe openly shunning them could be an answer, but naw, they'll just say that's Satan's work. They have an answer for virtually everything. So, I figure the best way to deal with it is to get on with life. Live well and live happy, as best anyone can. Living a happy life is probably the best testimony to the fact that they are wrong about us. of course they have an answer for that too, but that doesn't even matter. The JWs have absolutely no say over how I live. And unbeknownst to them, they don't have a say about what happens to me upon my death! Whatever is IS. I figure that dumping the JW AND eventually the ex-JW mentality is probably the best course of action. Don't even concern ourselves with them, at all. They showed up at our door recently. I had some things I wanted to say, but when my husband opened the door, I told him to just tell them we aren't interested. And we aren't. It was weird, they didn't even argue with him! Larry said they were two older men, and when he said, "JWs?" They said, "Yes." Larry said, "We aren't interested." One said back, "You aren't interested." Larry said, "That's right." And they wished Larry a nice day and left. Just like that. And I realized. I have no bone to pick with them. They can shun me now and in some instances, it's just a matter of inconvenience. Other times it's just dumb. I just feel the brief sting, then shrug my shoulders and move on. Who needs 'em? I don't. They offer nothing. And if I was to go back, I'd lose too much in that I'd be expected to shun at least my oldest child. NEVER would I do that. I'd also have to give up some of my art stuff. It'd never fit as a JW. Janet
Spiralblue		#2	[-]
Silver Level Member Posts: 49 (02/05/12 09:25:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yes!, just had that experience recently. An old friend, super intelligent, can talk and argue (in a friendly fashion) about anything.....until you mention something about the "truth" that doesn't make any sense. Then the blinders come up immediately. Doesn't want to see or discuss anything- probably because his wife is a very religious JW-but it's amazing how you can see his mind shutting down. Some of my other friends do the same but in their case I think it's fear, too. I too have decided it's just not worth trying to discuss it. Has anyone also noticed that the new (from an old thought, refurbished) mantra seems to be "the time left is reduced"? (What!! I thought the generation thing made it longer...anyway) SO in trying to discuss something, the default is "well, we don't know, but the time left is reduced, so we'll find out soon enough". SIGH It's just not worth the effort, and it does seem to reinforce their mental training. Om........
Lost Prince		#3	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6 (02/05/12 09:48:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree that the best thing I can do is lead a good full life and forget about it. They will all assume that my life will become a demon possessed train wreck full of misery. Since I have quit going to meetings, I have battled (and am winning) against a lifetime alcohol problem. My relationship with my immediate family is better than ever, and I have learned to deal with some major anger issues. Point, set, match.
strainedcourage		#4	[-]
Platinum Level Member Posts: 242 (02/05/12 10:08:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	One more approach is to just do what works. If it comes down to a life and death matter.
Rubadubdub		#5	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster) Posts: 414 (02/05/12 17:31:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lost Prince wrote: I agree that the best thing I can do is lead a good full life and forget about it. They will all assume that my life will become a demon possessed train wreck full of misery. Since I have quit going to meetings, I have battled (and am winning) against a lifetime alcohol problem. My relationship with my immediate family is better than ever, and I have learned to deal with some major anger issues. Point, set, match. Lost Prince. I'm so glad to hear you are doing well with your battle with alcohol. So many dubs are on anti-depressants and self-medicate with alcohol just to anesthetize themselves from their own thoughts and feelings. Cognitive dissonance is so painful. Keep up the good fight, and welcome to the forum! Kindness (Stanza 3) Before you know kindness /as the deepest thing inside, /you must know sorrow /as the other deepest thing. /You must wake up with sorrow. /You must speak to it till your voice /catches the thread of all sorrows /and you see the size of the cloth. /Then it is only kindness that makes sense anymore, /only kindness that ties your shoes /and sends you out into the day to mail letters and purchase bread, /only kindness that raises its head /from the crowd of the world to say /it is I you have been looking for, /and then goes with you everywhere /like a shadow or a friend. Naomi Shihab Nye (1953-) http://www.wussu.com/poems/nsnkind.htm Last Edited By: Rubadubdub 02/07/12 12:36:17. Edited 1 times.
blondmoment		#6	[-]
Platinum Level Member Posts: 265 (02/05/12 18:16:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	People do wake up thru these debates. Fact is, some will never wake up, but many do. I know a few, talk to them. They came on the boards, the youtube videos, etc, as JW apologists, who now are no longer a JW. Most I know speak out as well now. You never know. Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! Homer Simpson Youtube user name: Danmera
Papillon1960		#7	[-]
Posts: 3398 (02/06/12 03:20:37) Forum Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	blondmoment-I guess that's why I feel that folks leave if and when they ever get ready to leave. Some will and some won't. But one thing is for sure is that if one isn't ready, their ears will just clamp shut and they'll start justifying the doctrine and behaviors in their minds automatically. But you're right, there is a really good reason the GB don't want Dubs talking to folks like us! Rubbity-Cognitive dissonance sucks! It took me a long time to get it out of my head, but I did it when I was ready to. And I agree, there are way too many JWs on antidepressants to be considered the "happiest people on earth". JWs pass around medication at my mother's kh like they were M&Ms. strainedcourage-Definitely! What would be an example of a life and death matter? Do you mean the blood issue? Lost Prince-Good for you! I'm so happy for you and proud of you too! You may just have discovered one of the reasons why you drank, eh? Living a good life is the best way to move on and also to realize that we can't "save" anyone else but ourselves. Isn't that what we did as JWs? Try to save everyone else and thereby saving ourselves too? Welcome to the forum, btw! Spilralblue-I hear "Armageddon is right around the corner" a lot! That's exactly the same thing I hear in the years before 1975. Pfft! Janet-I know what you mean about moving past it all. I have except for wanting to help others who are hurting as much as I was just a few short years ago. I have let all of my family go with the thought that they don't deserve me in their lives. I have built a brand new family and don't even have to pretend I'm someone I'm not when I'm around them.
strainedcourage		#8	[-]
Platinum Level Member Posts: 251 (02/06/12 03:33:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Papillon1960 wrote: Definitely! What would be an example of a life and death matter? Do you mean the blood issue? I think that works as an example of what I meant. I was thinking of how sometimes we are so conscientious about being moral that we neglect really important things, even things that are a life and death matter. So in the case of a life and death matter, sometimes it comes down to just doing whatever works.
nevermind		#9	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster) Posts: 689 (02/06/12 04:43:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lost Prince wrote: I agree that the best thing I can do is lead a good full life and forget about it. They will all assume that my life will become a demon possessed train wreck full of misery. Since I have quit going to meetings, I have battled (and am winning) against a lifetime alcohol problem. My relationship with my immediate family is better than ever, and I have learned to deal with some major anger issues. Point, set, match. Good job Its easier to stop drinking when you stop going to meetings where they tell you that we all are worthless without them. A bit of self esteem can go a long way.
AndriaSyxx		#10	[-]
Posts: 23429 (02/06/12 05:40:51) Forum Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I find it rather sad that a bunch of grown adults can crumble so very quickly when you say even the tiniest of tiny things against their precious religion. You can slam dunk the Catholics, wipe the Anglicans and Methodists to one side ... speak of the weird goings on of the Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists and of course mock all the other 'charismatic' religions ..... but make one little squeak about the jdubs TO the jdubs ... and it's akin to skinning them alive with a very blunt fileting knife! "When you feel like giving up ... remember why you held on for so long in the first place." ~ Author Unknown ~
jwwondering		#11	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster)++ Posts: 1476 (02/07/12 09:51:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Spiralblue wrote: An old friend, super intelligent, can talk and argue (in a friendly fashion) about anything.....until you mention something about the "truth" that doesn't make any sense. Then the blinders come up immediately. Yeah I find that to be the case as well with a few people...very disconcerting to see. All the arguments are straight from literature and when you try to counter argue something, they can't even speak directly to what you say. And when all else fails, they will shut down the conversation. After all, our heart condition is not in the right place, so why waste their time with us at all? But yes, Michele, to your point of winning someone without a word...and I love stealing their phrase...it's true. If we just live our lives and act like ourselves, sometimes that carries more weight than giving them information on why the organization is wrong. Of course everyone is different...there are some people who NEED the pounding over the head with facts in order to wake up. “This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.” -John Steinbeck
Dis Spell		#12	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster) Posts: 413 (02/07/12 12:00:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You can slam dunk the Catholics, wipe the Anglicans and Methodists to one side ... speak of the weird goings on of the Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists and of course mock all the other 'charismatic' religions ..... but make one little squeak about the jdubs TO the jdubs ... and it's akin to skinning them alive with a very blunt fileting knife! It is funny what you mention because I have friends who are of various religions, one of them a catholic converted to Islam was my employee and others being Buddhist, a few Christians of various denomination including a fervent Methodist who is quite fundy and all of them will discuss anything and everything about their religion, including reading verses, pulling them apart and trying to make sense of them. I have never seen anyone get defensive right off the bat and/or act in such an irrational way as my JW ex ! I remember discussing the case of Mohamed marrying a child of 6 years and consummating the marriage at age 9, and I did not mince my words on that one, yet every Muslim I have talked about this with has always been able to discuss their POV including that these were different times or that the story was incomplete in the hadiths as described etc... All of them felt that this was a weak point in Muslim doctrine and that while they might not leave their faith for it, it was not the best episode by which to judge the entire religion. I digress but this is what even quite orthodox Muslims are able to say and do when discussing their cherished religion and I have never had a discussion with one that would shut down and begin reciting Q'ran verses mid sentence, as I have observed ex BF do when we discuss bible verse; literally he would string one verse onto the other and recite a bunch of learned stuff that was semi coherent to the topic and not reason at all; after which he'd calm down and say " this must sound like crazy talk to you but it is what WE, who sought the truth and found it have been led to believe, ". It never occurred to him that the word LED to believe was rather telling nor that usage of WE harks to group think. His favorite sentence was" We are better informed and more knowledgeable than most people on earth about every topic imaginable not just the Bible." Maybe in a case like that Without a word would have been a better approach, but you can only find out when you fail ! I want to end my seasons like I started them ...free! ~~ Uncle Andy - 98yrs old 2012 ~~ What I believe now is that the WBT$ must be stopped! They have ruined lives and been responsible for the deaths of too many innocent people in the name of delusion. Punkofnice - 2012 "It delivers people who have no tolerance for ambiguity from having to make moral choices. It allows self-loathers to project their hatred onto the world. It translates the allure of the world into Satanic temptation, so that those who fear its enticements are armed against seduction. It provides ego balm for the lowly, an identification with the The Chosen. Because Jehovah's Witnesses believe as little in psychology as they do in philosophy, it tames or numbs the wilderness of the heart by closing valves of inquiry." - --Barbara Grizzuti Harrison, author of "Visions of Glory" and once one of "Jehovah's Witnesses"
thehappygoat		#13	[-]
MVP (Most Valuable Poster)+ Posts: 1410 (02/07/12 15:24:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Also, I just love taking their phrases and turning them on the JWs. In that way, they would be "won without a word". I recently tried doing that with my mom during a HUGE nasty telephone call with her. I told her I lived by a wonderful quotation. Unbeknownst to her, it was the one from the Awake that says "No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family." I told her I wanted to share it with her. She immediately PANICKED! "What quote? Where is it from? Don't read it to me!!" I got super-calm and said "What are you doing? Why are you getting so worked up? What is wrong with you? It's not a quote from an APOSTATE site!" She refused to let me read it to her. She said "Let me put your father on and you can read it to him." I said "Are you kidding me?! NO I don't want to read it to dad. It's just a quote!" This went back and forth and finally I told her it was actually a quote from the Awake. And you know what she said then? She said "I will not have you using the publications against me." How do you respond to that? You can't read from an apostate publication, you can't read from one of their publications. Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Valerie
Cee Cee		#14	[-]
Indispensible Poster Posts: 2898 (02/08/12 02:13:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I just spent the afternoon with my own personal JahWit. It always makes me want a drink but since i don't drink I did the next most self destructive thing and drove through a fast food joint, bought a burger 'meal' complete with greasy fries and 32 oz of Coke and overate while driving home! GRRRR. Mom's aide, with whom she studies [The woman knows that will give her job security], was present so we didn't get into anything but I did get to hear her lie to me about business. [Nothing new there.] If frequency of use determines ones favorite doctrine then Theocratic Warfare--"lying to those who don't deserve to hear the truth", like me--has got to be hers. All that said, I think 'win 'em without a word' can be a whole lot more effective than feeding them information that they will only (a) use against YOU and (b) won't believe no matter how much evidence they are provided simply because is doesn't come from the FDS. Valerie's AWAKE quote is a perfect example. The downside of 'winning by example' is that it can take decades to see any difference. sigh Sometimes being ostracized isn't so bad after all. Cee Cee
solitaire		#15	[-]
Posts: 13250 (02/08/12 07:28:20) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	((Val)) I can't believe your mums reaction!! So now you are not even allowed to use something from their own literature??!! Although I think the most telling part of her conversation was "I will not have you using the publications against me." Yes, those who leave are so evil and twisted that we will manipulate their own literature Its so sad that she didn't let you quote it, cos imo it is one of the only things that they have 100% right, sadly they don't even heed their own words!! Sam xx
ThinkinGirl		#16	[-]
Gold Level Member Posts: 165 (02/08/12 09:40:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	thehappygoat wrote:...This went back and forth and finally I told her it was actually a quote from the Awake. And you know what she said then? She said "I will not have you using the publications against me." How do you respond to that? You can't read from an apostate publication, you can't read from one of their publications. Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Wow. Just...wow. There is no response to that. I feel bad for you, Valerie, but I actually feel worse for you mom because she is brainwashed beyond ability to use her own mind. So sad.
Lost Prince		#17	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 7 (02/08/12 13:08:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	thehappygoat wrote: She said "I will not have you using the publications against me." Of course, this is a tactic of satan the devil himself doncha know? Mt 4:5,6 Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him: "If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down; for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a charge concerning you, and they will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.’ " Us evil peeps are just like that I guess. Puke. I still have the capacity to reason like a dub. Not only are you only supposed to read what they tell you to read, but you are only supposed to get out of it what they tell you to get out of it.
redheadsquaddie		#18	[-]
Platinum Level Member Posts: 257 (02/08/12 14:32:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I find "well that's a real eye opener" spurs them on like a whip to a horse (pardon the mixed wotsits) and then a gentle "well really" eases em back into the trot and finally "I am really into S&M" puts paid to any thoughts of conversion and its nice to see a bit of colour in a young ladies cheeks Red xxx
fiftyfiveto1		#19	[-]
Bronze Level Member Posts: 5 (02/10/12 04:33:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	perhaps, though, they defend it because they really don't believe it. it's kind of like when you know somebody did something wrong. if they didn't do it, they would easily say "i didn't do it" and that's that. if they did it, however, they will sit there and try to convince you that they didn't. jw's becoming defensive, is them trying to convince you it's the truth, because they really don't fully believe it themselves. somebody who "knows" something is a fact doesn't have doubts.

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